August 05, 2004


Update: How in the world did I miss Jerry's accurate and detailed assessment?

What says the John-John Kerry Camp to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (i.e. the men who served with Kerry and who better to asses a man's character than his peers?) to this ad? Or how about this one?

Via Pipe Line News

Posted by Rae at August 5, 2004 01:23 PM

Kedwards says that its a lie, and wants it off the air:
From Drudge.
Kedwards also on the same day, cushioned by a wonderful perspective of "hindsight", criticized about Bush' reaction time during the attacks on Sept. 11.

There is no honor anymore.

Posted by: Jeremy at August 5, 2004 02:37 PM

Not one man in that in that ad actually served in Kerry's patrol boat. It seems they are angry on the basis Kerry later turned against this unjust war.

Trying to derail someone in this most unhonorable way is pathetic.

Heres some thoughts from Republican senator John McCain on Bush supporters stepping out of line.,1282,-4390280,00.html

Bad luck though, dirt dishers.

Posted by: FilthyC at August 5, 2004 06:01 PM

Welcome, FlithyC (ss the C for Commie? I would swear I've seen you around somewhere). Thanks for reading and commenting.

All I asked for in the post was the response of the Kerry-Edwards campaign. I think I'll head over to the website and see what's being said over there. I've read many opinons; just want the faacts and those can hard to discern when wading through all the partisan rhetoric.

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2004 08:03 PM

That would be me.

I certainly dont speak for the Kerry/Edwards ticket, im just speaking out against this particular way of smearing opponents. As a Bush '04 supporter im sure you are aware of people trying to discredit him using his somewhat shady service record.

Here are some facts.

''..... the Kerry campaign noted that "none of the men had actually served on the Swift boats that Mr. Kerry commanded." Adm. Roy F. Hoffman, one of the veterans in the ad, has even "acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor," the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported on May 7, "and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally."

The Swift Boat veterans links to the Republican party are also quite clear.

Posted by: FilthyCommie at August 6, 2004 05:58 AM

I think that perhaps filthycommie doesn't understand how close all the swiftboats were on the river. These are Kerry's peers and bosses talking. I have every reason to believe them.
For example, kerry claims he was in Cambodian waters during Christmas of 68 and speaks of Nixon's war - Not only was Nixon not in office yet, but there is proof that his boat was 50 miles away from Cambodia -
The man lied to get out of Vietnam. He lied to get a Bronze Star.

Posted by: Beth at August 8, 2004 08:30 AM

Kerry did his time in Vietnam (note: which he volunteered for) was decorated, and pulled out. He did his duty, and you are pathetic for trying to bring him down for it.

The swift vets are being deliberatly misleading, and the facts are non of them barely knew him. They are angry because Kerry later turned against this unwinnable, and unjust war. Let me go into some detail about these swift vet flip floppers.

George Elliott: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."

The same George Elliott at a Kerry press conference in 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is not something not to be looked down upon but it was an act of courage. And the whole outfit served with honor..."[T]here was no question that it was above and beyond anything that we had seen down there in that case at that time frame...It just so happened that this one was so outstanding that the Silver Star was eventually awarded."

Heres an earlier report from the somewhat dubious George Elliot.

Heres a passage from it -

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion, while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several KIA. LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program. During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards)."


Louis Letson: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first purple heart, because I treated him for that injury."

Letson was not under Kerry's command. Letson's name does not appear anywhere in any of Kerry's medical treatment files, so that allegation is deep-sixed.

Letson has a RAGING case of selective memory. This is from the 5/4/04 edition of the National Review Online: "Letson says that last year, as the Democratic campaign began to heat up, he told friends that he remembered treating one of the candidates many years ago. In response to their questions, Letson says, he wrote down his recollections of the time."
Adrian Lonsdale: "He lacks the capacity to lead"

Not only was Lonsdale NOT a member of Kerry's crew [none of these liars were], but he also pulled a flip flop. From the same Kerry for Senate press conference in 1996 where George Elliott was quoted praising Kerry:

"As far as I was concerned, the war was won over there in that part for that period. And it was mainly won because of the bravado and the courage of the young officers that ran the boats, the SWIFT boats and the Coast Guard cutters and Senator Kerry was no exception."

I dare any of you smearers to address this.

Posted by: FilthyCommie at August 8, 2004 06:48 PM

Hmm, FC, you made me do some digging.

According to PLN, "Nowhere in the ad do any of the Swift Boat Veterans claim to have served on any of Kerry's boats - yet Kerry's attorneys continually set that up as a straw-man." I do think the nature of the video may lead some to believe the men speaking actually served on Kerry's actual boat. It is misleading and seems to lack directness.

I also found this at PLN:

"The letter states that Medical Officer Letson "is not listed on any document as having treated Senator Kerry after the December 2, 1968 firefight" yet Kerry has not released all of his service records so the attorneys can not possibly make such a blanket statement absent the totality of the record - they might urge that their client release every single shred of his military record, including his entire medical record. That alone might serve to end this controversy."

I agree with many conservative bloggers that his Senate record is also important. But being married to a former Marine has shown me that being assessed by those with whom you served is an typically an honest assessment. They live with you and are with you when times are less than comfortable and more than stressed. Those are times when our true character is revealed.

I also believe that Kerry is the one who has made a point of repeatedly using his brief military experience as a point of reference for his ability to act as commander-in-chief and as example of his leadership skills.

I do know that politics are being played here in the timing of the release of the video, but I highly doubt that the DNC wouldn't do the exact same if it had something that questioned the character of George W. Really, so to see Democrats acting all pouty in the mouth is kinda ironic to me.

And, please, FC, remember the rules of discourse: civility is number one. I really like your comments and that they challenge me, but no name calling. I promise not to wag my finger at you this time.

Posted by: Rae at August 9, 2004 05:49 PM

''But being married to a former Marine has shown me that being assessed by those with whom you served is an typically an honest assessment.''

The point is, these men did not serve with John Kerry. John Kerry commanded 2 swift boats, and half a dozen or so veterans appeared with him at the DNC. THESE were the men that were under Kerry's command. Vets like Adrian Lonsdale cannot make ANY comments on his leadership abilities due to the simple fact they were never under his command.

The fact non of the veterans served on Kerry's hardly a strawman, as it means the veterans dont know Kerry half as well as they make out.

''yet Kerry has not released all of his service records ''

This is actually quite common. If you visit John Kerry's website, you can find the majority of Kerry's service records while in Vietnam. Its important to note that Bush hasnt released all of his service records either. I also think find it dubious that Letson didnt bring up the issue at the time, if he didnt think Kerry deserved the purple heart. Its important to note, Kerry just didnt give himself one. It was the Navy's decision. Perhaps Letson should take up his shifty claims up with them.

''I also believe that Kerry is the one who has made a point of repeatedly using his brief military experience as a point of reference for his ability to act as commander-in-chief and as example of his leadership skills.''

Why shouldnt he? He has every right to, ESPECIALLY after men like Elliot and Lonsdale previously praised his leadership skills, as i noted in my last post. Elliot had nothing but praise for Kerry both in 1969, during Vietnam and again in 1996 at a Kerry press conference. So the men are either liars or flip floppers. Take your pick.

''Really, so to see Democrats acting all pouty in the mouth is kinda ironic to me.''

Im not a Democrat, and the reason im acting ''pouty'' is because of the level these men are going to discredit an opponent. You should also note that respected Republican politicians distance themselves from the accusations, as they know trying to discredit someone in this way is plain dirty. Democrat politicians did the same when Bush's service record was bought up.

Posted by: FilthyCommie at August 10, 2004 08:08 AM

Hmmm, FC, more good things to consider.....

I couldn't help but laugh when I read your assessment that they were either liars or "flip-floppers" as that last one has been said of JK. Maybe they are just following his leadership now?

I know that some prominent Republicans have distanced themselves from this ad as have some bloggers that I very much respect.

I didn't mean to imply that you are a Democrat, just that it is silly to me that the response is so "shocked," when the ads against President Bush have been lacking in truth and accuracy, as well.

Remember, FC, I never said that I thought the ads were appropriate, I just wanted to know Kerry's response to them and to find out if there is any truth to them. I read both sides, not just one to come to a conclusion.

By the way, the reputation of one's integrity isn't limited to the circle of a serviceman's friends. His reputation for being a man of upright character will go before him to those to whom he humbly serves and must give an account; and will imprint the lives of the men behind him whom he loyally serves in leadership. I say this meaning that just because the men in the video weren't on JK's swift boat, doesn't mean that they are dismissed from assessing his character and leadership ability. Now, the fact that one of them (Elliot) has suddenly changed his mind about JK is to me more convincing of politicking than the question of serving with Kerry on the boat vs. serving with Kerry in other capacities.

I conceeded the politcs of this video and it really didn't convince me or sway me to think something that I hadn't already decided. JK's Senate record already took care of that for me.

Thanks for the discussion and the information. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment as opposed to dismissing out of hand a conversation with an obvious conservative about this video.

Posted by: Rae at August 10, 2004 08:45 AM

''as that last one has been said of JK. ''

Heh, which is why i used it. I cant think of any other ways to describe George Elliot, who has literally gone from one extreme of thinking to the other extreme.

thinking ''when the ads against President Bush have been lacking in truth and accuracy, as well.''

I actually agree with you. Despite having an SN like Filthy Commie, i am not a fan of any blatant smearing and misleading. Im not a fan of Michael Moore, and to be honest i see these men on the same level.

''I say this meaning that just because the men in the video weren't on JK's swift boat, doesn't mean that they are dismissed from assessing his character and leadership ability.''

In which case, why didnt they protest at the time? Even if these men ARE in a position to judge Kerry in this manner, which i dont think they are.....they all seemed to have changed their stance for political reasons.

''I really appreciate you taking the time to comment as opposed to dismissing out of hand a conversation with an obvious conservative about this video.''

The pleasure is all mine. I dont think this is a case of liberals vs conservatives, as there are a lot of mixed views.

Posted by: FilthyCommie at August 10, 2004 01:35 PM

FC, I just figured you out, but shhhhh! I won't tell anyone ;)

Posted by: Rae at August 10, 2004 06:57 PM

Excuse moi?

Posted by: FilthyCommie at August 12, 2004 07:54 AM

Well, the last address that you gave was the same as one that a former commentor also used. In fact, iwas exactly the same. He went by the name of Guerilla Radio....

Posted by: Rae at August 12, 2004 04:50 PM

I'm amazed at how easily some people are duped by propaganda. Why would you believe a bunch of men who have no documentation--in fact, the documentation contradicts what they say--, have an ax to grind (anger at Kerry's post-war activities) and contrary to what you state did NOT serve with Kerry on his boat. Many did not even serve at the same time as Kerry or in Kerry's division. This is a complete fabrication.

These men are contradicted by their own statements praising Kerry in the past, by the Navy records (many of which some SBVT signed), and by the testimony not only of men on Kerry's boat but by men on their own boats, including Robert Lambert, who says he would never vote for Kerry and found his after-war protesting "reprehensible". Yet he received a bronze star for courage under fire, witnessed to Thurlow's bronze star citation for courage under fire and says his crewmates--whom he likes--are mistaken.

I appreciate that you're conservative and thus have an agenda to discredit Kerry, but I'm also susprised that you aren't more interested in the truth. It's easy to repeat unsubstantiated slander, but it's dishonest.

Conservatives always claim to be the party of family values, etc. Where are the values? If you are intelligent--as you seem to be--you know that these are lies because the body of evidence contradicted these claims is overwhelming. Yet you pretend to believe in them because it boosts your candidate and tears down the opposition.

That is hardly "truthsaying."

Posted by: CatM at August 27, 2004 08:17 AM

You wrongly attempt to understand me, "CatM." I don't have an agenda to discredit Kerry because I am conservative. I am actually a moderate Republican, with strong libertarian economic leaning.

I asked a question. I got some feedback. I researched it. These guys paid for this advertisement on their own (as I believe the supercilious lawsuit that has come up will prove). Please read all the comments and you will find that some the the accusations that you level at me are unfounded.

It is curious to me that Kerry supporters are having a fit about this advertisement when they have been slanderous and many times misrepresented President Bush in both speeches and advertisements.

So, let's just say the swiftboat vets are wrong. Let's now move onto the fact that Kerry, who claims to have experience enough to lead this country has a very poor record in attending the commitees he, ummm, committed to.

By the way, you were right about one thing; I am intelligent and I appreciate you acknowledging it. It is a bit frustrating for the left to paint conservatives as elitists, when many, many of us are populists.

Posted by: Rae at August 27, 2004 11:05 AM
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