it has only been in the last 100 years that the Bill of Rights (of which I carry a small version in my purse; the Constitution, also) has been interpreted to mean anything other than a white, land-owning male. Women were considered property and intellectually insufficent to be able to make contributions to the boiling pot of philosophical and political thought. Black men and women were thought property; educationally and professionally subdued, and kept at arm's length. Children were thought to be mere blank boards and an extension of a man's property (thus a woman leaving an abusive man losts her rights as a mother) and many times forced to work in order to assist in provision of the dreams of those who were bound by ancient intrepretation of the law and rights concerning what constituted a citizen; or to an even deeper degree, a human being.

Tell me where any of those things are supported in Judeo-Christian sacred books? Are we going to pull quotes out of the new testament or old quoting how to treat slaves? I don't buy that argument. I believe that God, knowing the evilness of men's hearts, knew that slavery, polygyny, and desire to rule over and control those unable to defend themselves would play prominiently in the lives of mankind. So, He made provision of law to both guide and punish. Saying that because God did so equals God's approval and desire for man to enslave people and cruelly subjugate them, is like saying that me telling my daughters that if they ever lie to me I will punish them, is giving them permission to do so. Or that if they were ever to become pregnant outside of marriage, that abortion is not an option, but adoption or guidance in raising the child is, is like saying that I am telling them to have sex before marriage. It isn't the same thing. God very clearly says what is to be done and very clearly says what isn't to be done and gives management guidelines for the results of both.

So, back to the original thought: in my reading of history, I see that the men most prominent in the writing of the documents that shaped this country's government were not Christians. They were Deists. They were intellectuals and very educated, thus they were exposed in their classical education to the scriptures of the Bible and respected the laws they found therein and while I cannot deny it influenced them, I do not believe it to have been the sole infrastructure of our laws and government. They had just been through a fierce and bloody war to proclaim themselves free from a form of government wrongly imposing taxes, loyalty, and religion on them. In fact, I see it as opposite. I see that we were a nation established as a Democratic Republic and we came to be influenced by Judeo-Christian ethics and values: " There is neither Jew, nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free man; there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ." Galations 3:28.

I have never supported prayer in public schools. As our country experienced massive emigration in the early 1900's, we began to experience an influx of cultures and religions. Many of which most of the American citizens had never been exposed. When I lived in the Midwest, I was surrounded by those who had the same faith as I did and if they didn't have it then, it was almost statistically imposible that they hadn't been exposed to it at some point in their life. Many thought that prayer should be allowed and even mandated. That was because they didn't have those of the Jewish, Baha'i, Buddhist, or even too many varying protestant faiths around them. Imagine the level of outrage should someone of a different faith lead a prayer. What would be the response then? Private prayer cannot be removed from the hearts of people. Nor can it be outlawed from the mouths of mankind (many in other countries have and will continue to die for belief in the Christian God and practicing it's tenets meaning that though there may be an actual written law against it, it will not keep the people from praying aloud). The practice of one's faith is encouraged in this country; so also, is respect of those who do not share your own. I am fearful of the establishment of a "Christian" nation. What would it lead to? Which branch of Protestantism or Catholicism would be recognized as theologically correct?

I believe this country is unique in that it encourages people to practice their own faith and in not recognizing anyone faith as the only one allowed.

I am not solid on this premise (America not being established in Judeo-Christian law) and would welcome polite opposing discussion. I am teachable, not always humble, but a good and well-thought argument can and does educate me.

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I'm a firm believer that the USA is founded on a Godly herritage. That being said...

I had a hard time in my History classes when I was force fed the concept that the framers and founding fathers of our country and government were "diests". When looking at the personal history of these men, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were the most "questionable" in their faith. The rest were former clergymen, congregationalists, and very devout believers in the "Almighty God whose Providence is our source of Divine Protection."

Ben Franklin, who I mention as being questionable, was quoted as saying the following, during a heated and bitter deadlock issue on representation (The New York Delegation had angrilly left the Convention, as were some other delegates):

"In the begining of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor ... And have we now forgotten this powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?
I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: "that God governs in the affairs of man." And a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?
We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that excerpt the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better then the builders of Babel; we shall be divided by our little, partial local interests; our projects will be confounded; and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war, or conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessing on our deliberation be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business."

I will agree, The Constitution and Bill of Rights were not perfect. There was a lot of petty squabbling in the Convention on the "Rights of Property" and the "Rights of the State". And states like Gerogia and South Carolina were adamant in those rights which you highlightes above. It took a bloody Civil war and an Equal Rights Movement to correct those mistakes. (And that is what they were, mistakes) But it was all to keep these independant states in one Federal Government. (I'm not saying it was right, because it was definately wrong, as God's word, which Franklin so heroicly charged, should never be compromised.)

If you like, I have some great books which speak about this subject, if you are interested in a little light reading. They helped me sort this through in my head, as I was converted from an athiest to a Christian 8 years ago.

*steps off soap box*

by Jeremy on May 28, 2004 11:23 AM

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Hello, Jeremy. Thanks for commenting; I was beginning to think no one would touch it. I am a Christian, as well. I grew up with the same history as you and I do know that many of the contributors to the writing of the Constitution were Christians-great men of faith. I think the vocabulary lends itself to a decidedly obvious knowledge of Biblical language.

I have been teaching (and learning right along with them) Ancient Greece and Roman history to my three (of four) oldest daughters. It occured to me one day, while diagramming the governing structures, that ours is very similar.

While I think that the Founders definitely believed in the God of the Bible (the One, True and Living God), I do not think they wished to declare this nation a "Christian" nation. I am thinking they desired more that people truly be able to worship as their conscience dictates. This having fueled by escaping the dictatorial Church of England.

So, when I hear people claim that we need things like prayer in school, postings of the Ten Commandments, and such, it makes me realize how little they know about this nation, how little they understand the varying subcultures that exsist outside of their own tiny town, and they have wrapped God up in a nice package (complete with complimentary coordinating ribbon).

I think moving to Utah has been the best thing in helping me to understand the reasoning behind the state making no recognition of a particular church or faith. I assume (after reading your very thorough and well-organized site-kudos there) that you may understand a bit about that living in AZ as AZ, UT, and ID contain the highest populous of LDS. What other states make allowance for an off-campus hour long study of one's faith? And why?

Anyway, thanks again! Please come back frequently- I welcome your thoughts, positions, jokes, donations, left-over Italian food, etc. :)

by Rae on May 28, 2004 01:22 PM

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It is my understanding that yes, we did look back at the Greek form of government, a democratic (people rule) republic (the people elect representatives to govern them according to the law) and also the Roman government, which also was a republic for awhile, when beginning our new country.

I don't think that the founding fathers intended to make this a "Christian nation", they wanted a nation of liberty and justice for all. That being said, I do think that many of them were devout believers and that certainly influenced their thoughts and ideas. But again, this country was founded as a place where all (albeit all probably meant white land owning men at that time) could live freely. They were so concerned about protecting freedom and about limiting government that the first constitution of the US, the Articles of Confederation, didn't work too well. It didn't give Congress very much power, and there was no president except the president of Congress and he couldn't do much either. Thomas Jefferson actually did include a section in the origonal Declaration of Independence in which he described slavery as a "cruel war against human nature." But Georgia and South Carolina would not sign the Declaration if it contained the anti-slavery section. Must go now, more thoughts later!

by Kris on May 28, 2004 08:17 PM

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The opening proposition to me seems to beg an answer, for so many reading here may have an opinion as I do. I believe it was the intent of the founding fathers as more a matter of expected result rather than "on what" they based our constitution. If I am to set up a business or interest group or sports team or terrorist group for that matter, I have a myriad of methods to model from. History is a good source of my choosing. What worked and why and how can I make it better I may ask myself. So what really matters in my eyes is the intent of result, not the method of execution. I also believe that they may not have intended a "Christian" nation per se. However niether did they conceive anything other than that. Rather it may have been their world view or paradigm of a society that was worth having. Better than what they came from. I suggest that they might allow "tolerance". Not in the modern sense of moral relativism. I think that their paradigm was one of acceptance of other forms of the same faith. When you think of societies of the time that were not european or "Christian", what was there to offer other than raw materials needed for a more modern nation? So did they see the need to create a "christian" nation-no. But they may not have conceived an anything goes secular one either. We have become what was not intended for sure. Would public displays of faith have worked then? Yes and no, just like today. Do I want prayer in schools or government supported programs of faith? No. I must remember that we live in a fallen world and the government doesn't do many things very well. The one thing the government still does well is make MARINES. Semper Fidelis.

by R on May 28, 2004 08:53 PM

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Hmm, good thougts me friends (R & K)....

by Rae on May 28, 2004 10:05 PM

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I agree with your opposition to Prayer in School. However, I still believe there are a lot of biblical principles applied to both the Constitution and our frame of Government. (Sure the Greeks and Romans had simmilar styles) But even our Balance of Powers comes straight from Isaiah 33:22:
"The Lord is our King, the Lord is our Lawgiver, the Lord is our Judge"
There was the inspiration of our model of Executive, Legistlative, and Judicial branches.

But was this designed to be a "Christian Nation", I don't believe it was. I do believe that God wanted to use this nation as a way to reach the masses. The freedom of Religion we enjoy is a perfect vehicle for that. I don't neccesarily believe in a Seperation of Church and State. Yes the State cannot tell the Church what to do, but I do not believe it prevents the Chruch advising the state. (I quote the mighty mighty Thomas Jefferson there.) The Church is a source of Truth, why should our Government be withdrawn from it?

But in terms of heritage, I look more towards the powerful Providential events which took place to bring this great country to fruition, and I look to that as the heritage. What we enjoy today, is deeply rooted in events like Plymoth Rock, The Great Awakening, and a Revolutionary War fueled by the pulpet, via the likes the men like Mulenberg. The mechanism may be derived from various sources (the most of which was quoted from John Locke, and not that Voltaire guy) but the Biblical priniciples are there. (Minus the whole slavery and lack of equal rights - but hey, none of us are perfect!) And its through those principles that even non-Christians enjoy the rights of this great land.

I guess that is a rather wholistic perspective, perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds good to me.

Thanks for the compliment, by the way!

by Jeremy on May 29, 2004 12:31 AM

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Anyone watch Colonial House? ;)

Love this thought provoking thread!

by pam on May 29, 2004 09:40 AM

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Yes, Pam, this is such an interesting thread. I don't watch Colonial House, but I am sure that if I had cable or DirectTV I would be watching it (we aren't television boycotter's, btw, just too cheap to pay for it).

Interesting points, Jeremy and fabulous verse. I am to ponder some more on your thoughts.

Oh, and you're welcome on the compliments :)

by Rae on May 29, 2004 11:25 AM

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I would have to agree with Jeremy and add my assertion that this nation was in fact founded on Judeo-Christian tradition.

As for slavery, the Bible has absolutely no strictures on the taking and holding of slaves, and makes no moral pronouncements except those in Leviticus 25:39-54, Deut. 23:15 and Deut. 24:7. Taken in context with the words of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6:5-9 the Bible paint a very different picture of slavery in it's biblical context. In fact, Israel's punishment for the immoral taking of slaves is given to us in Jeremiah 34:8-22.

Needless to say it was a very different institution than the one practiced by Europeans.

That having been said, our Christian forefathers were decidedly un-Christian in their treatment of slaves. This has since been rectified.

But I digress. Your assertion, "I see that we were a nation established as a Democratic Republic and we came to be influenced by Judeo-Christian ethics and values..." has it exactly backward. Parethetically, it would be the absolute truth when applied to Britain, where the Roman Republic was imposed before Christianity was introduced. America was, in the beginning, colonized primarily by Puritans and Quakers who suffered discrimination and persecution under the Anglican Church of England. As such, the culture was dominantly Christian in nature and practice. In fact, Jews were concerned that the overt nature of Christianity in America would lead to their eventual persecution. Their fears were allayed when George Washington wrote to the Touro Synagogue of Newport, Rhode Island.

It was exactly those Christian values of tolerance that permitted Christians of different denominations and Jews to live harmoniously together to bring this nation into being. In fact, Jesus sets the tone for this tolerance in Mark 4:26-29. He makes it clear that all we need do is plant the seed, set the example and God will do the rest.

In terms of faith in the public arena, I believe that currently we have it all wrong. Let's review the First Amendment again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Note the emphasis. The Constitution is very clear. The intent of the Constitution was to limit the powers of the Federal government. There's no provision at all to prevent a state from establishing itself as a "Christian" state. In fact, a very clear picture of this separation between Federal and State authority becomes clearer when you review this proposed legislation. It was opposed by James Madison not on the false "separation" argument we see today, but on the very simple grounds that all citizens of a free Christian nation cannot be compelled to support a faith that they may not agree with. His arguments are extremely compelling.

In any case, there's just too much evidence to the contrary to make the assertion that this nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

by Robert on May 29, 2004 02:41 PM

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Robert- thanks for coming by and commenting.

Your comments are well-organized and very thought provoking. I am especially moved to rethink my position by your example of Great Britain being first a Republic and then moving into a nation influenced by Christianity. Likewise, your comment that "all citizens of a free Christian nation cannot be compelled to support a faith they may not agree with" has lodged in my brain, too. What about prayer in a classroom setting being led by a teacher? I am curious as to your thoughts on that specifically, as well. I think I am going to have to print out all the comments and read through them.

I checked out your site-I love the power point quotes and enjoyed digging through your archives. Please come again anytime.

by Rae on May 29, 2004 04:05 PM

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To chime in with Robert, I wrote a simmilar article on Misinformation on the Seperation of Church and State.

One of the clinchers of this argument of a Biblical Heritage for me, is seeing who serves whom?

Unless I'm mistaken, the United States Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were the first to put Man before The State.

Until then, Man was to serve the State, as the State was the authority and Man was just an element of it. (Likewise, the Church, and the Family were also elements of the State)

The Bible teaches us differently. God is Soverign, God uses Man to do his work, and the State, the Family and the Church are external reflections of Man. So no longer does Man server the State, but the State serves Mankind. This was the revolutionary part of the Constitution. The State came second, not first. Our founders recognized that and made sure to put those mechanisms in place.

They did a pretty good job. It took 200 years for us to distort it to where we find ourselves today. Usually these kinds of things go "off-the-wire" in a couple of generations.

by Jeremy on May 29, 2004 04:11 PM

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For years I thought I was some kind of heathen for thinking that prayer in schools wasn't a good idea. You know me Rae, I have opinions, but I never have a good way to make my point. Not like you do anyway.

I believe God is a gentleman. He doesn't want to make us love him. That's why he created us the way we are. As Christians it's our job to show people the love of Christ, not to dictate it. I haven't heard anyone being changed by having Christian prayer in schools. I have heard that people were changed by the way a Christian teacher or student showed his love.

By the way, I checked out a book called A Nation of Gods: A History of the Mormon Church. It's very enlightening. I learned that the great, great, great granddaughter of Brigham Young asked to be "released" from the LDS church because of the many indiscrepancies that she found. Interesting???
Amy

by Amy on May 31, 2004 05:57 PM

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Alas, you recall that it is actually your mother's night for attending classes at the university. So, as the sun sets and no offers for dinner have come in, you head home. There you are served a can of Spaghettio's that Live-In has spit in (in front of you, grinning while mixing it in; however, giving a reaction would then further his delight and also give fuel for another demonstration of his awesome backhand, so you just stare with feigned obliviousness-remember, acting is rewarded in this home), a glass of half skim milk and half water, and dry toast. You are sent to your room to eat alone. Your room consists of a pallet you have made for yourself in the study of Live-In. You decide to chance it and sit on the couch that is kept in there, as the floor is carpeted and full of fleas. They, too, are hungry after your day's absence and it is easier to sit on the sofa in a few minutes peace. But each time you hear Live-In come down the hall, you must quickly remove yourself for fear of his wrath. You once had a room, but the puppies now have it. It is a room full of fecal matter and chewed up pieces of books and other items that were once your possessions. After your dinner, you are told to go to bed, although it is only 7 p.m. You have learned that it is better to acquiesce, so you remove only your shoes and tuck you jeans into your socks (this keeps the fleas at bay), arrange your quilts, covering your head for maximum protection from the vermin, and lie awake waiting for the return of your mother. She is the only possible way out of this. Every night you listen to her laugh and know that she will never leave him.

Before stereotyping my "family," or assuming that we were economically poor, know that Live-In was an anethesiologist with a bachelor degree in Pharmacology: yes, a registerd Pharmacist and a doctor. There was money in the bank, but the hearts were overdrawn. We lived in splendor while our spirits were emaciated. We drove BMW's and lived in one of the wealthiest sections of OKC (yes, such a section of town exists), but our souls were impoverished.

This is what fuels my desire to know myself. I can't stand pretension and am always immediately suspicious of it. I cannot face my God and Maker guilty of not knowing my children and myself. If I should go there and not, then let me be condemned. I deserve it. So, when I was angry this evening, I tubbed and thought. Water always relaxes me and thus draws forth a more organized thought from my body when it is wrangled with confusion and tension. Today was just a terrible day. Early on in the day, I realized something that was not and it was good for me, but I felt the fool and that inspires no one to feelings of adequacy. At about 2:25, A brought to my attention that the animals had an appointment to have their rabies shots. After 20 minutes of phone calls discussing cost, I finally headed upstairs to collect the cats to kennel them. I found the children attempting to lure Sam (my Blue Mackerel Tabby) into their arms. He smells treachery (and intentions of kenneling and vet trips) from a mile away. I had to sweet talk him into my arms only to turn traitor and shove him, back paws first, into the wretched carrier. After having their yearly requirement met, luring them back into said fear (and claw) inducing structure, quickly drove them home only to gather swim team items, piano books and head immediately back out the door. Dropped children at piano group lessons, ran downtown to sign up for soccer, then headed over to the vet's office to pay him (forgot checkbook earlier), then back to piano (which was, by then, over) loaded children and drove over to pool only to learn no swim team today. Took children home to drop off 3/4 of them, retrieve more checks, and go to pharmacy to pick up a script for C's allergies only to have insurance deny and then claim that they don't cover anything for allergies. Drove home angry to find a husband and four children hungry and looking at me like they are disabled. So, after a quick sweep and some instructions, I began to reheat leftovers as it is now almost 8 o'clock. Then, from a very profitable discussion had between her father and herself this weekend, came forth a list of ways that I need to improve in my helping A be a better person. Then, R tired from work and having no energy left for a discussion of the ADF versus the ACLU (which morphed into a thought of did our forefathers establish this country on Judeo-Christian values or rather the Ancient Greek form of a democratic Republic?), cleaned the kitchen (thank you from me and A) and headed out to the local mom and pop killer to purchase needed items to put in the boxes he was sending to Maj. Bellon and his Marines (generously funded by our church members), so much needed adult conversation was cut short.

After putting those who required my assistance to bed, I filled the tub high and sank down deep. To think. I let the water cover my ears and left only my face out. I could feel the displacement of the water by my body occasionally swish ever so slightly against my cheek. I could hear the strange sounds, distorted by the water, of the older girls talking downstairs. I rewound the events of the day. Then I realized what it was. I want always to be a wonderful wife- one that R truly delights in. I want always to be a good mother, one who talks with her children, helping them to know themselves and to love God and understand how much He loves them. I hate it when I have somehow not measured up. I know that none had the motive of making me feel like I wasn't just the best they could have or desire, but when I am told that improvement is needed, I feel myself begin to fall. In my head, I slip back to being ten years old again. Where in the midst of the biting fleas, I determined to be the best wife and mom in the world. I promised myself that I would be perfect and that my family would never be wanting due to me. That ten-year-old had the best intentions, as does this 34-year-old. But the 34-year-old is held to a higher accountability. She must understand that no one will be perfect, but she can be humble and teachable and honest in her examination of herself and others and through that can be the best for her husband and her children and herself.

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I am sure, that if some grumbling was going on, it was probably hungry stomachs (and tired bodies) that were doing most of the talking. You are absolutely adored by your family.

You are a wonderful mother and wife, and a fantastic friend to say the least. It is so amazing to see how God has used your horrible childhood to shape you into this incredible woman who can see things that the rest of us miss. Because of your intuition, which was developed regretably through your trials, you bless those that you come in contact with. You are able to point out the landscape of a beautiful sunset over the ocean to those of us who get caught up on the uncomfortable sensation of the scratchy sand between our toes. You can see wolves in sheep's clothing and have protected many innocents from potential tragedies. You have compassion and sympathy for your children and consequently have captured their hearts.

Take courage my friend, and do not let the arrows of the enemy bring your spirit down. You are busy doing Kingdom work. Press on!

by kujo on May 26, 2004 09:01 AM

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I know what you mean. I want to be a better dad, loving and fun and affectionately gruff.

And sometimes I yell at them too much. I think it's the old Army influence, trying to instill 20-year-old levels of discipline onto a 2-year-old.

But there is no "perfect". There is only constant effort, constant introspection/critique to try to spot and correct mistakes, and more effort.

And a willingness to forgive yourself, and to make up for shortfalls in perfection with extra hugs and displays of affection.

Because the biggest factor in my failures is always pressure...and what is "trying to be perfect" but more pressure on an already-overtaxed psyche? I'm glad you had the bath to relax and contemplate. I have guitar. I'll have to try your way sometime...

by Nathan on May 26, 2004 08:49 PM

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It's not an everyday occurance to learn something of this magnitude about a friend. The feelings that come to my mind are very difficult for me to put down on paper.

Your story made me thankful for my life's story. My mom also came from an abusive home and she did not continue in her parent's footsteps. Compared to your's, my childhood was a fairy tale. How thankful I am.

Thank you for sharing your life with me. I'm so blessed by it.

Amy

by Amy on May 28, 2004 11:04 AM

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The next occurance was in my AP Literature class in seventh grade. French again. This wasn't as colorful and fun as the teacher was only Mrs. Steinhoff and she never wore scarves and made us sing silly songs for which we were too cool to be bothered to memorize. We wanted to know only the fun stuff: our names and swear words.

High School Spanish my junior year with Mrs. Borho: she was a homely woman with a love for the language and Latino culture. Her hair was closely cropped; her nose shelved small spectacles decorated with filigree and hazel eyes. The boys teased her like a skinny wormy dog. Still, I liked her. She sincerely loved Spanish and feigned innocence to the boys attempts to insult her. Not enough people signed up for Spanish 2 my senior year, so I took it as an independent class and sat in class for her occasional help while she inducted a new set of ignoramous testosterone laden fools into the tongue of our southern neighbors.

As God would have it, I enrolled in Spanish 1, a five hour course, in the fall of my freshman year at the university. I sat three or four seats over from an older, but funny and good-looking Marine who would, through our choking down of "verbs and vocabulary," pursue and capture this girl's heart; which he still lovingly holds today.

We still speak Spanish. There are occasions when we wish to make a private comment in the midst of eyes and ears that are simply not invited into that place with us. The girls are learning the language, as we have passed that love and desire to communicate on to them.

Sitting in church this morning, I allowed my mind a few moments away from the sermon to wonder what will the language of heaven be? Since I believe that God created all things, including language, and also believe that once in Heaven I will have a perfect body, soul, and spirit, will this enable me to converse with people in every language? Will I be walking along, reveling in the splendor and beauty, and begin a conversation in a language that I never learned while on earth? Or will words be immediately translated and placed directly into my head? Will there be a new and totally different language that will be automatically known and understood just because we are there? Whatever the answer(s), I do believe that communication and language is important to God, (else why would Jesus have even had a ministry and spoken to people; why the "Word" of God? "God said..." "Jesus spoke, saying...") and that all the imperfections that come about in our daily verbal intercourse will be removed and we will somehow perfectly commune with one another and God in eternal camaraderie.

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Interesting thought, my friend. I think I like the idea that any language that anyone speaks, either sounds like English to me, or I just automatically know every single language so I can understand what they are saying. Wish we were in the same town so my kids could be in your Spanish class that you teach to yours and the other neighborhood children.

by kujo on May 24, 2004 07:56 AM

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1)Interrupting. It has to be first. I love conversation and when someone is saying something that stimulates a thought in my head, I can barely contain myself, and rarely do. I don't really mind it when I experience it, but while I am energized by conversations that cause such a flow of mental activity, I can see that it is highly annoying.

2)Procrastination. It makes anyone who depends on me absolutely crazy. I do tend to put things off until the very last minute. I have improved in some ways. As I have said before, home educating has been a kind of "outside" disciplinary force for self-improvement. I have always been like this. When I was in high school and college, nary a paper was written ahead of time. Nope, not me. I was burning the midnight oil. But, it worked for me. I did well. My papers received good remarks and grades. I think this bad habit stresses those listmaking personality types. They can't handle not having everything lined up and every "to-do" item neatly crossed out. I am the one item on the list that is upsetting their world because it simply can't be drawn through and marked as "finished." I am working on it.

3)Calling it how I see it. This tends to hurt feelings more that purge anger from aquaintances and friends. I am a very "What You See is What You get" kinda gal and can't handle pretension or Cocker Apaniel submissive-pissing types of people. I am not talking about someone who is genuinely polite and considerate, or quiet and truly humble, or mentally handicapped. I am speaking of the sycophants. People who can't make a decision where to eat or to which shop to go, always wanting for you to decide and then they follow your lead without question or feedback. You know, the person who is constantly mousing around for fear of your dislike or disdain. O.K. I kind of got off topic and began to discuss more of my pet peeve, so, let me think, how is this truly rude of me? I think that I show very little patience with these types. I know it isn't very merciful of me. But God seems to desire me to attain a bit more grace as I keep running into these types of people. My friend Kris (who is my children's godmother, and is affectionately regarded as the real Mrs. Darling) has been very helpful in my improvement in this area. She is diligent to try to consider how her words may affect someone. Kelli has been instrumental, as well. I have unknowingly crossed the line before in our friendship and she, like Kris, has called me on it. That is a true friendship: telling your friend what a jerk she has been and that she needs to knock it off, instead of saying nothing and playing passive/agressive games (see the above description in this number).

4)Thinking I know more than I do. You know, the "Rae-Knows-All" syndrome? Even my mother-in-law, whom I dearly love and has proven herself faithful to me (not just her baby boy) many times over in order to have the "place" to say this to me, has warned me that by thinking that I sometimes know more than the person in charge, I have caused more damage than good. She told me, "Sometimes you have to recognize that maybe they do know more and are doing their best." I am sure that it stems from trust issues from my childhood, but what reasonable 34 year-old woman can hold onto that excuse? I have now spent more years out of my mother's house than I was in, time to shape up and shut up...("but can I just make a tiny suggestion on how it could be improved....")

That was all I could come up with in five miles. I am sure there are far more, but you know, it was much harder to think of myself as an annoying person than I realized. Oh, and hotrod ended up wearing curlers and a hairnet. Once I saw the elderly face look over and sincerely smile, I knew that perhaps she hadn't done it to me on purpose after all.

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Wow! It's like you're inside my head. I'm guilty of all four, especially the first two. I'll think about that some more and come up with a list called, "Ten Biggest Things I Do That Annoy Other People." Thanks for the idea!

by La Shawn Barber on May 17, 2004 10:06 AM

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You are so funny, La Shawn. That would be a fun meme to send around the blogsphere...can I partner with you in it?

by Rae on May 17, 2004 10:11 AM

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P.S. I have kind of suspected we are kindred spirits from reading your blog...

by Rae on May 17, 2004 10:12 AM

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Don't see no bone stickin' out.

by R on May 17, 2004 09:11 PM

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Ahhh, honey, thanks....and you oughta know ;)

by Rae on May 17, 2004 09:53 PM

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At least if someone pulls out in front of you, you know what he's doing. What gets me are the ones that act like traffic is bathwater--they try to slip in an inch at a time.

by The Sanity Inspector on May 19, 2004 08:40 PM

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lol-"Bath water"

Hey, welcome SI :) I feel so honored to have had you here. Please come again often.

by Rae on May 19, 2004 08:52 PM

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I think that some people cannot stand the idea of having to follow a car, even if that car is going as fast or faster than they want to go.

When I drive to work, along a state highway out in the middle of nowhere, some person always passes me, and then slows down to 5 to 10 miles an hour slower than I was going in the first place.

I think it's a power thing.

by Beth on May 22, 2004 01:50 PM

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You know, Beth, I think you're right.

by Rae on May 22, 2004 05:21 PM

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Then seek pardon again in the middle of offending. My greatest hope is that my daughters see me, Mother, not as unattainable for themselves. I want them to see a real woman who is doing her best to love, protect, and educate them but one who says sorry when she has been unbearable, over-reacting, sarcastic, and a general grouch. Sometimes I am plain wrong. I don't like it when I am. Desire of perfection has a good strong hold on my pride. Swallowing a rather large lump of it, I then also admit fault and seek forgiveness.

Upon returning home from my self-prescribed retail therapy this afternoon, I found this in my e-mail:

Dear Wonderful Mommy,
I love you.You are a wonderful mommy.
I couldn't ask for better.Even if I act hateful,it probably isn't your fault.When I am mean to someone,normally,I am angry about something else.If you feel like I am terrible sometimes,I always feel bad about what I did,right after I did it.I think I am just to prideful [wonder where she gets that?]to say sorry.
Then I feel even worse.I have fun with you so much when we are together.I really enjoy being with you.I think that if a person didn't like you,they would be totally NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But we don't have to worry about that because everyone likes you.

Love,
A

This, then, is my treasure; my bountiful booty from the fight against self. I pray that I may keep it in a prominent place, because stuffing it into some old chest only helps it to be forgotten and dust laden. These are the days that count...

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I always like A so much, well all of them, they are great girls.And now to you, it's ok sometimes, we are humans, trying to get better parents, they know that and you should see their faces when you are about to talk, it doesn't matter if it just a trivial thing, they are always waiting for your opinion, I know that, I've seen it. you are a "Great MOM', never doubt that!!!love you!

by virginia on May 12, 2004 08:01 PM

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Oh, Flaca, thanks so much for your words of encouragement :)

by Rae on May 12, 2004 08:14 PM

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R had called on Friday at about 6 p.m. to tell me that he had just gotten off the river. He sounded exhausted, so I told him to just stay another night. He arrived home on Saturday morning. It was pleasant to have him home again. We chatted while he laid on the bed and I was in the bathroom reconstructing.

When E, A, and I got back from the delicious breakfast (I love breakfast food), r and I took off to go purchase my Mother's Day gift- everything needed to fill the flower bed in front of my porch with beauty and color. I couldn't wait to get started so as soon as we walked in the door from the Nursery, I threw off my skirt and top and got into jean shorts and t-shirt- the most comfortable clothes ever made. The girls helped dig, spade, rake, and weed. We adequately prepped the soil. It was getting late, so we went in and celebrated and left the rest to Sunday afternoon.

So, I got the plants in on Sunday and then literally fell into bed. Monday I awakened to the lovely southern Utah wind. It was ripping my lovely little buds from their beds. I was so angry. Thus began my quest to save my present. I spent the entire day fighting the wind, re-planting, planting more, laying Weed X, mulching, watering, and every three minutes, I had to duck my head and cover my eyes as another roll of wind blown dust came sweeping down the street. My girls were a big help, but it was hard physical work. I mean who knew those muscles even existed?

To top if off? One of my sweet daughters left her American Girl doll on the top step, which tired me did not see. I stepped on it and slide five steps to land, hard, right on my rump! uh-huh, laugh now, but this ass hasn't been fallen on like that since my skating rink days and that was 22 years ago, thank you.

Thus, my excuse for exhaustion.

What's yours?

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I found this via Ith. The strange things I do when I can't sleep...

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In 1969, a fresh faced 18 year old girl was beginning "real life." She had attended a year of college after graduating with honors from her tiny Oklahoma high school. She had been both a star basketball player and a cheerleader. She was well-known for being nice and friendly.

Her first year of college introduced her to new and exciting people. One of them, an older guy pursuing, the perpetual fifth year senior, was from her same small town. He was five years older than she, so they had only known of each other in passing. He asked her out. She said yes. He was older, good-looking, intelligent and most of all, he was getting out of Nowheresville.

She had never intended on staying in that town. She had plans. First, her undergraduate in Political Science. Then her Juris Doctor. Then on to a fabulous law career. She was smart and pretty with milk chocolate brown eyes, a nice smile, and dark brown hair.

They didn't date long, but long enough for her test to come back positive. She was pregnant. And what did girls do who were pregnant outside of marriage in 1969? Beat it to the nearest preacher with man in tow. They got a license and an apartment in the same day. Of course, now that she was married and expecting, she didn't need to continue her schooling. The girl fought that, though, and enrolled in the fall semester. It was early late June and the baby wasn't due until February. She would take winter term off and then re-enroll for the summer. He would help keep baby while she attended classes.

Only, he had a few undisclosed problems that their short courtship hadn't allowed her to see. One day he was on top of the world. His energy was amazing. He would study, go to work, and not sleep, for days. Then, suddenly, it was like he had been hit by a train. She couldn't get him out of bed, or to shower, or leave the apartment. Finally, one day, he looked into those trusting brown eyes and told her to get lost. He didn't really love her and didn't know why he married her in the first place. She was some loose whore and how did he know this was his kid in the first place? "Get out!" he said. So, she left.

Now, she may have been young, but she wasn't stupid. She packed her bags and left. Filing for divorce in July, the lawyer advised her to keep the pregnancy hush-hush. Judges didn't look to favorably on unwed mothers. They signed the papers in August. She had been married and divorced in approximately 10 weeks.

Knocking on her mother's door, she promised to stay only until she could find an apartment. Then she made a quick trip over to the university to change her major. She didn't have time for lofty career pursuits. Nursing was a two year degree. By taking a few missed pre-requisites, she could get into the program and graduate by the time the baby was two.

Baby came quickly that cold February morning. She delivered alone with only the nurse and the doctor. The next day, He showed up; all apologies and promises of doing better. He seemed so sincere. He was so eager and excited to hold the baby and crow over her. "Please, let's try again." His family encouraged the reunion by telling her how he cried over her and his child. Her mother admonished her to do the right thing. So, she relented.

She gave it a year. After 18 months of manic behavior, she moved out. That was it. It was final. She called the enrollment officer at the university and asked if she could try for that Associate's in nursing after all? Her mother sent her a round-trip ticket to come and drop the baby off with her until she finished. It would take six months to complete the course work and clinicals.

When she graduated, had secured a job, and a place to live, she retrieved her daughter. She would give no information to her ex-husband as to her whereabouts. Initially, she tried to allow visits to his mother, but after Grandmother began to be harrassed for more information, that connection was cut, too.

It couldn't have been easy to have been a single mother in the early '70s. But my mother did what needed to be done. She wasn't perfect. She made some very poor choices later on in my childhood. But she gave me life, not a perfect one, but life. Had she made a different decision those many years ago, I know of four people who wouldn't be here now. Four very precious girls who have purpose and determination and character and who thank their grandmother for making a choice that has given them their mother.

I love you, mom, and know that your life has not been an easy one to live. Thank you for not having an abortion, like many of your friends encouraged you to do. Thank you for taking the harder road that has scratched and scarred us both, but in the end has made us stronger for it.

Happy Mother's Day to the mother who chose to be one against many odds.

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Wow. You are the real hero in this story in my opinion as you have not allowed yourself to be eaten up with bitterness about other childhood memories, and have chosen to believe the best about your mother.

by Kris on May 11, 2004 07:11 AM

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I have thought about this many times, Kris, and really don't know exactly how I arrived at this place, save by the grace of God Himself.

I do very much believe that I have been forgiven of much and who am I to hold someone to account when my own has been wiped clean?

by Rae on May 12, 2004 07:21 PM

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Man, this story made me tear up. It hurts my heart to think of the children lost who will never have the chance to share this story. I'm glad your mom made the right choice.

by Keely on April 7, 2005 09:26 PM

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that someone somewhere, has a very nice house because of all the late fees I have paid in my life. Now, it's not entirely her fault. I am, after all, a thirty-four year old woman and I can no longer blame my mother in eduated circles. So, I take responsibility for myself. But, I do believe that had some accountability and correct modeling of money management occured when I was younger, perhaps I may have avoided so many NSF notices.

I want for my daughters to be smart with money. No freaking out over how to pay the telephone bill; or trying to bribe the public services guy who's there to shut off the electricity; or leaving Peter naked in the road and tossing his tunic to Paul.

So, tonight, after my girls and the neighbor girls helped weed, turn over the soil, break up the dirt, throw out rocks, spade, and rake our little flower bed, I determined that we would reward their hard work with ice-cream and Peter Pan.

And here they sit, piled on the futon and the floor, with bellies full, bodies tired, and lesson learned that hard work yields, not only good things, but a sense of purpose and satisfaction, and a little bit of fun.

Me? I watered the bed and deeply breathed in the smell of the wet earth; it's scent intoxicating and soporific. It has been a lovely day and now I must go tub, soaking my body in frightfully hot water, and recall an afternoon well spent.

I could ask for no better Mother's Day weekend. Thank you.

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Wow. Your story could very well be mine, Rae!

My parents--mostly my Dad but my Mom is guilty of not keeping a firm hand on his impulsiveness--were not the most responsible people in the world themselves, especially when it came to financial matters. Every dollar store and thrift store between Central Texas and the Gulf Coast probably knows him by first name, and he's certainly put more than his share of store operators' kids through college. I didn't develop any money sense until I met and married my husband Eric, and I still have to bite back my compulsion to spend freely if we near a bookstore or boutique.

--TwoDragons

by Denita TwoDragons on May 9, 2004 09:07 AM

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Rae,
I wish my mom would have taught me money manangement like you are teaching your girls.

by Amy on May 11, 2004 07:36 PM

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E and A lay on either side of us; eyes still closed. The rhythm of their inhaling and exhaling a lullaby to my still drowsy eyes. Soon, C awakened. I sent K to get dressed and then quietly got my own clothes on. With keys in hand, C, K, and I left the sleeping beauties to retrieve donuts and a Venti for me.

As we made our way home, the sun sneaking between the branches of the stoic Elms, I listened to an NPR interview with Mary Chapin Carpenter. She is one of my favorite singer/songwriters. Her metaphoric insight into the human experience is unparalleled. I had avoided thinking about the tragic news I had received the day before, but the sound of Mary's voice blending so smoothly with the her acoustic accompaniment, drew the grief from the pores of my heart.

Yesterday had been quite busy, so when I arrived home, I ran downstairs to check the machine as I scanned the mail in my hand. After a few messages promising me the vacation of a lifetime in Mesquite, the voice of my friend Kelli came on. I could tell she was attempting to control the urgency, but still something was there in her voice. Back upstairs in the kitchen, I started dinner. My mind was on the City Council meeting I needed to attend in an hour. The children came in and out chatting and getting themselves ready for their evening activities. I remembered Kelli's request to call her, so I picked up the phone and dialed. I left a few messages and hung up with my attention turned again to the Council Meeting and food preparation.

After popping the dish into the oven, the phone rang; Kelli's voice on the other end. I leaned against the counter, scratching my foot with the other, taking quick sip of wine. I paused to tell the girls to get their shoes and be ready to leave in a few minutes. She still sounded a bit pensive. Then she told me that Becca had been killed in a car accident. The girls having settled themselves on the floor and hurriedly tying shoes, slowed down as they heard their mother's voice crack. The call was brief. When I hung up, I saw the look in my girls' faces. Who? What?

Becca was 17; a senior in high school this year. She was a sporty girl and good with children. It was Becca that my girls preferred of her 7 sisters. She liked Barbies and jumping on the trampoline. Patience was one of her many virtues. I always preferred for my girls to be around someone who wasn't immediately annoyed with their childish antics. She babysat once a week while a group of my friends and I got together for a Bible Study, coffee and sweet rolls (as they are always called in the kitchens off the dirt roads of America) and mutual commiseration of the challenges of life. Becca brought games, books, videos, snacks, and smiles- in other words, we never heard a peep while we munched, sipped, and whined.

Knowing that no one is perfect, I am sure that Becca had her own issues to deal with. She was one of 9 kids in a minister's family. The societal pressure to be perfect was probably tremendous at times.

I simply cannot imagine sending my child on an errand never to see her again. Never to hear her voice, angry with me; never to see her hair glitter in the morning sun; singing while showering; fussing over herself before going out the door; not to see another hard earned accomplishement baptized with the tears of her perseverance and sweat of her labor; never to see her belly swollen with the love of her heart; her eyes wide and overflowing with love for a man that lives to love her. I cannot pretend to empathize with Cliff and Cindy as they bury their child today in the afternoon sun of a Missouri field. I can only humbly offer my gift of sympathy and pray that the love of their wonderful child will fetter their hearts in strength to face each minute of each day until they meet again.

Fare thee well,
My own true love.
Farewell for a while.
I'm going away,
But Ill be back;
Though I go 10,000 miles.

10,000 miles...
My own true love;
10,000 miles or more.
The rocks may melt,
And the seas may burn
If I should not return.

Oh don't you see
That lonesome dove
Sitting on an ivy tree?
She's weeping for
Her own true love,
As I shall weep for mine

Oh come ye back,
My own true love.
And stay awhile with me.
If I had a friend
All on this earth,
You've been a friend to me.

Rest well, Becca.

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My heart breaks for her family.

There's little more that I can add to that.

by Craig on May 6, 2004 12:18 PM

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A promising young life cut short, taken from the people that love her so much... What more of a tragedy is there? :'(

Saying a prayer for Becca's family and friends...

by pam on May 7, 2004 07:18 AM

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Oh how awful... I can't even imagine what her parents and siblings must be feeling.

My heart goes out to her family...

There are far too many tragic stories lately of young lives being cus short...

by Nee on May 7, 2004 08:55 AM

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I am sorry for your and your friend's loss of Becca.

We can't know His plan. Often it doesn't make sense to us mere humans.

As I am typing this Mercy Me's All Fall Down started playing - "...I pray to You for I am fearfully and wonderfully made..."

Bless you and your family.

by GrumpyBunny on May 7, 2004 01:13 PM

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Sorry to hear this Rae.

Occurred to me the other day
You've been gone now a couple years
Well I guess it takes a while
For someone to really disappear
And I remember where I was
When the word came about you
It was a day much like today
The sky was bright and wide and blue

Chorus
And I wonder where you are
And if the pain ends when you die
And I wonder if there was
Some better way to say goodbye

Today my heart is big and sore
It's trying to push right through my skin
Won't see you anymore
I guess that's finally sinking in
Cause you can't make somebody see
With the simple words you say
All their beauty from within
Sometimes they just look away

Chorus

Some better way to say goodbye

Martina McBride - Goodbye

by Patrick on May 11, 2004 12:00 AM

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That is a beautiful song, Patrick. Thank you for sharing it.

by Rae on May 11, 2004 12:23 AM

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Thank you also, everyone, for your very kind and thoughtful sentiments.

by Rae on May 11, 2004 12:24 AM

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I have had many people tell me that they feel sorry for me that I have four female children. When pressed for the reasons for their supposed sympathy, they stated "that sons are easier; never the fear of getting pregnant." After a few ignorant commentators, I finally countered their stupid and irresponsible belief system with: "Oh, so your boy can screw whoever he likes as long as you never find out about it?" That shut them up quick.

What a thought! I was incredulous! I am regularly given sympathtic sentiments for having been "burdened" with all daughters- the oncoming hormonal avalanches; weddings; "possible unwanted pregnancies." Yes, we have realized that we might want to invest in Procter and Gamble, just to get a bit of our money back, and there will probably be a time when our storage room will have a few boxes of bulk "items" and we definitely go through the toilet paper, but since when does one's gender decide who is more responsible for the outcome of having sex? So, if one of our daughters told me she was pregnant, you can be damn sure that we will also be having a conversation with the guy and his parents.

I feel that I am contributing to the development of one of the most influential positions in the world community: mother. One day, God willing, my daughters will have children of their own, perhaps a few. If each of my daughters had four children, the reach of R and I will go four fold and will only continue into the coming generations.

Oh, and I have educated my older daughters (younger will be when they are old enough) to be careful to whom they attach themselves emotionally and physically. I do believe it hard to sever the gossamer thread that stitches itself between two souls that connect in so intimate a manner. Oh, and so not to be completely misunderstood as a finger-pointing hypocrite, I have had to cut a few threads myself; it has not been easy. There were times when there was nothing of the heart involved, or so I thought. We must all awaken one day to ourselves and that can be a hard sleep from which to come out.

I think it interesting that the Nazi feminist rhetoric that insisted on women being seen for more than a pair of breasts and a vagina, by insisting on casual sex, only all the more encouraged the thought that it was allowable to see the woman as T & A. Reducing the thought necessary before entering into a sexual relationship, whether casual or permanent, has damaged both men and women.

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